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Poll

Am I guily of anything

yeah.... hang him
1 (10%)
Nah.... done eff all
1 (10%)
bury the Board and have a public enquiry
8 (80%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Paul Gee History, every tradesman should read this, it could happen to you.  (Read 8418 times)

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Offline Badger

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To Whom It May Concern:


 
My name is Paul Gee, I am a gasfitter from Nelson/Takaka, your paper has run a few stories on my situation.
I thank you for the opportunity for a right of reply. I have included others as it needs to be addressed in a public forum ASAP and I am trying to cover as many bases in one hit. I hope this is OK and causes no offence.
I understand that you may need to edit, but thought it better to give you a brief history so that you can see what has occurred and its outcome… in context. It is a long email but three years have passed for my family and me. I would rather you print it in full, verbatim, as the public need to know and I am happy to back all my claims and welcome comment.

A Very True Story Every NZ Tradesman Should Read
 Back ground History
I have complained about the work practices of my old employer, John Darnley, since 2003 and the dodgy certs involved, and many times since 2003. I left Allgas, after just 10 months, because of safety concerns and have repeatedly told any who would listen, including numerous MPs and industry. The only MP to listen and act was Nick Smith who wrote a letter on my behalf in 2006. Ironically, I also have a photo (amongst other photos) from 2006 the same year. It shows the “impartial” investigator who was later appointed to persecute me, a few Board members and my old boss. It is of a gathering of members of an industry group to which my old boss was a member, aswell as some Board members, the presiding Board member for my hearing and the “impartial” investigator who is actually a fellow of that institute.
One of the main contributing factors to my leaving Allgas was the remark, that a technical specification wasn’t required, “just use poker face and make out you know what you are doing”. This was for a job where the owner has the same hot water in his central heating radiators as to that which comes out of his hot taps and shower, all known to the Board. The final straw was being told to fit an appliance contrary to the very large warning on the box….This shows the attitude I came across at Allgas.
Apparently the Board feels that as John Darnley is retired now, he is no longer a threat. Please bare in mind he worked for well over a decade, empowered with a craftsman ticket to sign off himself aswell as other less “qualified” people. That work is still out there. It was discovered at my hearing that he wasn’t against the signing off of unlicensed people too, who in all probability may be totally untrained at that.  The chip shop was about 7 years old when it exploded. Some times it can take some time for all the essential factors to congregate altogether at one point in time, which is the case more often than not.
I was unaware, at the time of making my initial complaints that some of the people to whom I was complaining, including Board members, were members of the same industry groups as my old boss. The presence of these industry groups on an industry Board, according to the NZ Law commission, is against best practice and the Commission recommends against it because of the impartiality questions it raises.
I must add I am not a stirrer, grass or dobber, but when you see other peoples families put at risk, for profit….what are you meant to do???? I do not want to get someone in trouble for just trying to earn a crust to provide for his or her family. But if you are prepared to earn that crust while putting others at risk, then it is a totally different matter.
A Near Fatal Explosion
Then we had the explosion that nearly killed someone at the Milton St chip shop in April 09, I had been complaining for six years by then. The chip shop was an old butcher’s type, glass fronted building. Where school children queue up in front before school, if the explosion was an hour earlier it could have been so very much worse, the potential still terrifies me.




 
Still, this incident has ruined at least two family’s lives, mine and Ron Clarke’s, the chip shop owner. I was mortgage free in a very modest house with no debt what so ever, I lost everything and my wife has had to live in a caravan while I have been forced to work away from her and my two young lads. Ron and his wife have told me the huge effect it has had on them, not all physical either. It has been a financial, emotional train wreck for both families, I really feel for Ron and the effect it has had, not to mention the fact it nearly killed him.
The Inquisition
I came forward on the day of the explosion and volunteered to be interviewed by Mr Hammond, first mistake. I answered all his concerns, to the point where none of his initial “concerns” made it in to the final charges, but he still pursued me and asked for more jobs to be checked, I have a letter from the Board’s representative stating the 3 whole years of my installs were then checked, all the ones still in use.
I asked for an impartiality hearing because I could see where it was heading. Over the years, previous to the explosion, while making my complaints I had been threatened, and could see these people were going to make good on those threats.
I was told by my lawyer and his QC colleague to plead guilty, take it on the chin and open a café. Opening a café was an idea my wife and I had had for her to do when the kids went to school full time. We now live in the very run down building on the site of this “dream”. The Lawyer had to that point cost me over $10 000.
This was where Wal Gordon entered the situation, I really would have been lost at this point and had thought I had explored every opportunity to defend myself……for something I had spent 6 years warning against.
I went to an impartiality hearing that I had requested before the actual hearing, to put forward my concerns about the impartiality of the Board and its appointed investigator. The Board had an opportunity, right there and then, to put a stop to this persecution. I provided photos and membership lists, etc but to no avail.
“They” judged that “they” were impartial…….. how can someone decide whether or not they are impartial? The question alone means you are involved. 3 of the 5 members of the panel, I had complained about, giving them the majority.

Licence in a box of cornflakes
To the best of my knowledge Mr Darnley had been granted his full craftsman gas fitters ticket by the very same “impartial” investigator appointed to my case, Mr Darnley did just one oral exam with no formal apprenticeship. Other gasfitters with full apprenticeships served and experience running gasfitting businesses, all be it from other countries, have had to re-sit and start from scratch. Basically reduced to an apprentice on entering the country, it usually amounts to 7 to 10 years of exams and practical assessments, as was my case. It is of note that John Darnley is also originally from the UK, as is Mr Hammond.
The Boards “impartial” investigator, the presiding board member for my hearing and John Darnley were members of the same organisation, along with other Board members, past and present. John Darnley resigned from this institute the month following the explosion.

It Is OK To Tell Lies.
Before my hearing I was rung by the caretaker of Motueka High school. The Board’s acting registrar, Kern Uren, had sent them a letter (unknown to me up until that point, along with 5 other letters, to my customers ranging from the west coast, Nelson Motueka to Havelock, basically the whole of the area I had ever covered with my business) implying I had issued certs illegally in Northland, a place I have never even been to. It was from this point that my business basically disappeared, overnight.

It was later admitted by Mr Uren that these letters could have been “better tailored”, but only did this after 18 months of letting it run, ruining my reputation. Kern Uren also phoned me to “warn” in a manner that I found very upsetting and unnerving, we were at the time corresponding by email, and judging by the content of the phone call not a good idea for him to commit to writing.



Mr Uren then later accused me of being vexatious when I produced copies of gas certs that had writing on them that was absent on the carbon copies. This meant it was added after signature.
Mr Uren also failed to act when shown a letter written to the Board, written in my name. It was sent to alter a cert’s address; it was dated 3 months after I had left Allgas. It was not written by me, but it was written on Allgas letter head concerning an Allgas customer. All the gas certs at Allgas were filled in by the office staff, which were never questioned and still are not to this day. The office was manned by John’s Darnley’s wife and daughter.

Relationships
The presiding Board Member for my hearing and the impartial investigator has served together in numerous organisations, sometimes giving presentations together, sometimes running the same industry trusts. A quick Google of Tony Hammond (investigator) and Stephen Parker (presiding Board member at the hearing) proves this. Actually a Google search on all concerned and the word “gas” is hugely informative, along with the industry groups and legal people. If you Google my name and gas you mostly get reference to the explosion, it isn’t helping to repair my reputation, neither are the constant press releases by the Board. I have been quoted as calling my self a “mere plumber”, but no one can find where I said it, in context.

Protecting Their Own Creation
The 2 x “impartial” investigators, Tony Hammond and John DeBernardo, had helped write the NZ gas regs. Mr Hammond was also heavily responsible for deregulating the gas industry, for them to find fault in the gas cert system and gas regs would be like asking a sculptor to pick holes in his biggest and best creation.

The second “impartial” investigator, Mr DeBernardo, even though he billed for a large amount of time and costs, his notes were withheld. I still to this day not know the full extent of what he did or contributed, but he was paid quite a large sum, as was Mr Hammond. Other information was withheld under legal privilege.
 
Stooping To Any Level
My lowest point, without doubt, was coming home to find my wife sobbing hysterically, literally in pieces, emotionally. She had opened an email from the Boards investigator referencing, very graphically, child sexual abuse. It was marked as past presidents for case law on probabilities, not just one case but three cases. I would include it, but it really is too sick, you can find it on the “NZ Plumber’s Forum” under posts from “Badger”. I am certain that there are other more palatable past cases to reference, and to send it in a “plain” envelope as it were, for anyone unsuspecting to open is just warped.
These people have done nothing but terrorised my wife and had a huge effect on my young family….and by anyone’s measure they are undoubtedly totally innocent of anything. The email was she opened blind. It was sent when she was facing the prospect of having to sell her home and have her husband work away and raise her two lads alone in a caravan for the winter, this then later happened. We have lived in a very run down house (which was once a dream of a café) for the summer and face the prospect of going back in the caravan for the winter. These people appear not to care what they do to people and their families or the public for that matter. I am not the only one, far from it. There are literally heaps of unfortunates who have been put in this situation; they are just too nervous to come forward, usually after suffering at the hands of these people.
The “Fair” Trial
The 42 charges that I was found not guilty of were ludicrous. One of the charges was for fitting a califont that wasn’t even manufactured in Japan on the date of when I was supposedly to have installed it, according to the serial number, which is in full view on the side of it, easily seen by any one who wanted to see it.





The other charges were just as bad and the sites only investigated by Mr Hammond after he laid charges. Some of the charges were amended to better fit the facts discovered by Mr Hammond after his………………… re-investigation.
It is an industry perception, openly pushed by the Board, to plead guilty and the Board will only ask for a fine and not costs. They let it be known that the costs usually out way the fine quite substantially. The Board also boast of a 100% conviction rate, which is statistically impossible. Not every single person before them is guilty, but most plead that way to minimise the actual financial cost. All this can be found on their web site.

The Outcome
I was found not guilty of 42 of 44 charges; the last two were for –
Charge 1… The installing of a califont fitted 540mm vertically below an opening window. I have a British standard allows for a 300mm gap (see attached BS regs; pages 42 and 43). I also have an email from a senior building adviser from the Dept of Building and Housing. As I read it is saying I can use British standards, if they are relevant, see below in email to Boards CEO.
The same NZ reg referenced by the Board for a 1500mm gap is to a “passive” opening window. The same table/reg allows a 1000mm gap to an “active” mechanical inlet into the building (which would act like a vacuum cleaner, sucking in the fumes from outside to inside). So according to this same NZ reg you can have something mechanically in sucking air, into a building 500mm nearer than a window that just sits there, passively open.
It specifically mentions a spa blower, which would suck the fumes from outside and literally place them under the nose of the person in the bath. I checked the specification for these fans on a spa blower; they suck by the cubic metre per minuet, they would fill a normal sized bath room in a matter of minutes.
Perhaps this is why a 300mm gap is allowed in the UK and the same NZ reg was amended in May 05 to allow for a horizontal clearance of 500mm to an opening window, down from 1500mm previously.
Charge 2… This was for signing the gas certificate for that address mentioned above. So this last charge would fall over if the positioning of the califont charge fell over, leaving me after a near 3 year battle, after loosing everything……. 100% innocent of any wrong doing, which I still believe I am.
If you were to read the Boards public slating of me, made before my right to appeal, you could be forgiven for thinking I was dodgy and incompetent, as do all my customers apparently as my business is kaput, and you can’t blame them.
It is of note these last charges were the only ones where I admitted to doing all the work and I still stand by the work, in light of the email below and the British Standard reg.

Who do you ask for Advice?
See below the email I sent to the Boards CEO, it includes an email I received from the Dept of Building and Housing, after I asked about using a British Standard reg in NZ. It is of note that the author of the email below from the Dept of Building and Housing shares the same name with a panel member that wrote the NZ gas regs, a list of people appear inside the front cover of NZ 5261. If it is the same person, then I am sure he is qualified to pass comment. The Boards very limiting policy on appeals means I could not produce this email at the appeal either or the British Reg.
 
It is of note that the UK population and per capita use of gas is massively in excess to that of NZ, and would undoubtedly show any short comings or problems in the application of this British Standard written in the year 2000, pre-dating all this carry on by 3 years at least and is still in use.




 


I was asked at the hearing by the Board what document I had used to locate the heater and truthfully answered that I had referenced a tech note from another manufacturer. I have learnt over the last 16 years to start a sentence with “back in the UK” gets a lot of kiwis off side and so didn’t mention the British Standard. I really thought a tech note from one of the biggest califont manufactures sufficient. The only other gasfitter present was Scottish and I would have thought this British Standard specifically for a fan forced appliance below an opening window, in all probability would be known to him.
But as I hadn’t mentioned this British standard or the email allowing its use at the original hearing I could not bring it up at the appeal. The ONLY other gasfitter present in the room and on the hearing’s panel for the Board was Scottish and in all probability had used the very same standard in the UK, as it is dated for the year 2000. A person of the same name as the Scottish gasfitter has since been nominated for a place on the Board of the Master Plumbers.
I concentrated on all the other charges, thinking that a tech note for much larger models would have answered that charge. My mistake was not mentioning the British standard. If I had mentioned it, then the Judge could have considered it, even though it was in all probability known to both sides, i.e. the only gasfitters in the room at the hearing, myself and the Scottish Board member.
Any reasonably minded and experienced gasfitter will tell you a Bosch califont is extremely similar if not identical to a Rinnai one, and a Rheems one for that matter, in performance and design. Also the NZ or BS regs do not differentiate between brands, only appliances. They are the same appliance.
In the face of all this and against all odds we managed to prove my innocence of 95% of these trumped up charges, even when I had had notes and photos withheld and witnesses added two days out from the hearing. At least one withheld photo showed that what I had said for the previous 2 years was true. The forensic investigator for the police had taken over 100 photos; the “impartial” investigator for the Board only showed me about 11 or 12.
Many of the witnesses refused to sign their own witness statements or changed their statements just before or on the stand or refused to show, such was the nature of the evidence. 
I believe that I am totally innocent, the British standard proves what I did was safe, as everyone in the UK aren’t keeling over dead when their fan forced flue appliances are fitted with this 300mm clearance to an opening window vertically above. This proves the mandatory part one of the NZ reg was adhered to, the part 2 “breach” I was convicted of is not mandatory, but a form of compliance, again please see email below and the actual reg NZ5261.
Still….. 95% result is a good pass mark, by any standard, in any exam.

Thank you Wal
My advocate Wal Gordon deserves huge credit, as do all the people who have helped me. He still stuck by me when he was phoned up and threatened to “watch what horses he backed”, this was by a prominent Nelson plumber, whose father in law is an ex board member. I still think this coward owes Wal an apology, he could have done it in person the night previously, but chose to wait until Wal was leaving the next day….. and did it by phone, spineless. Apart from a few beers forced on him, Wal has received no monetary payment at all and has put in many many hours, not just for me, but for the plumbing industry as a whole.

The Cover up, covered up since 2003
On going concerns, while researching for my hearing and appeal I have discovered that at least 11 certificates, out of only a 150 cert search sample, has the gas leak pressure test results not filled in, and according to an insurance expert this could very possibly nullify people’s house and / or business insurance. The poor sods that have paid good money for services are being let down and deserve to know. These incomplete certs were processed and accepted by the Board, some showing highlight pen on the missing information, I kid you not.






Mr Hammond brought to one of my initial voluntary interviews… black ink photo copies of the certs concerned while I worked at Allgas. They were done on pink paper, this gave the effect that they were true photo copies of the master pink copies….helping mask the multitude of different colour inks all over the certs.  I only got to see true copies after a lot of trying. My first request to see them I was told, way back in 2003, there were over 1000 certs in my name and it would cost $25 per cert to get a copy. Then later I was told that the freedom of information act didn’t apply to the Board, and then finally allowed to see them after applying under the privacy act and after the 2009 explosion, which is when I saw all the different colour ink.
I had initially made inquires at the Board about 4 books of gas certs in 2003 and again just recently. These books of certs were ordered and bought in my name with out my permission by Allgas. They were ordered the day after I had told my old boss in no uncertain terms that I was leaving. I was told in writing that they had been returned and correctly filled in, all except 1 cert. I have been told this twice by a Board’s legal representative, by letter. Even though this cert is claimed not to have been received by the Board, this same cert has an electronic copy on the Boards web site, which is impossible if it wasn’t registered. This same cert just so happens to have the gas leak test results missing. I have also been told in writing that the cert for a pizza oven installed a year after the initial install at the exploding chip shop wasn’t registered at the Board. The Board state that they were made aware of this 9 days after the explosion, yet again a missed opportunity to stop persecuting me. But this unregistered cert according to the Board also has an electronic copy and the carbon copies that I have seen also have the gas pressure leak test results missing.
Legally, if the test results aren’t filled in then “legally” the install hasn’t been tested for leaks, it potentially nullifies the cert and in doing so can nullify the owners insurance and I should imagine building consents and council paper work. The expert from the Insurance overseers says this is of concern also.
According to Mr Uren and Mr Hammond, it is common practice to have someone order, pay for, fill out, sell and register certs in your name. This is OK’d by these people of responsibility, even though these legal documents, the certs, are marked “non transferable”.

A Reasonable Request
I ask you to warn the public to check their certs and contact the Board if they have any concerns. The Board have definitely been aware of this for quite a few weeks, may be much much longer. To the best of my knowledge they have not acted or notified anyone. 11 certs out of the 150 I asked for is a huge %, and include certs stated as being filled in correctly by a Board legal representative and include certs that are from the batch ordered in my name, with out my permission….and with the blessing of Mr Hammond and Mr Uren.

The Board want to charge me money to check this situation further. I have had quotes for $1000’s of dollars to check and police their own faulty system, faulty with their full knowledge. But it appears they are not prepared to do this themselves and act in the best interest for the public to whom they have been registered to protect as a charity…..yes a charity. I have shown them a hell of a lot of information and evidence to warrant concern, but as far as I know they have done nothing. The people of Nelson, perhaps NZ, deserve so much more.
I was told by the CEO of the Board that the electronic copy of the gas certs on the Boards website was a representation of the original “paper” copy, the paper copy being the legal copy and that the Board kept these original paper copies indefinitely, but then I was told that they could not locate many of the paper copies I had requested. Some certs were “rediscovered” when I told them I had photos of carbon copies of 15 certs that I had obtained from the gas suppliers, some of which had test results missing. Some paper certs are still not available from the Board.
This electronic system for recording certs reportedly cost a large sum of money; I have been told 100’s of 1000’s of dollars but can’t verify this. So to a  $90 000 Christmas trip to Melbourne for the Board which included their partners, nice work if you can get it, if it is true. Ultimately, all paid for by the NZ public. Also Kern Uren has his son and sons father in law working at the Board’s secretariat, the one position had about 200 applications for the job. Perhaps someone with a bit more pull than me could ask? 





The secretariat hadn’t told the Board there was a problem with the electronic cert system, and apparently only became aware when Kern Uren was asked on oath at my hearing. I think the remark from Stephen Parker, who was deputy chair and presiding member, to Kern Uren was...”we have a problem with the computer system?”
I have neither the will nor the resources to police and investigate this faulty system. The Board’s website for gas certs now carries a recently added disclaimer and the “print” button has been removed, the disclaimer says that the electronic copy may not represent the paper copy, but it ran for many years without this disclaimer and had a print button. The whole industry and the public have been misrepresented by this state of affairs. For example, people who have used this public source of official information to print off certs, incorrect ones, while selling a house, have relied on incorrect and false information, provided by the very authority entrusted to hold and protect that information. And also you have the problem with the insurance. I believe the public have a right to know this, and apparently the Board aren’t addressing it.
It is of note that the only certs that don't carry a disclaimer are the ones filled in by the gasfitters them selves, and have no paper copies and the Board don't hold any “signed” copies of these, which according to the Act, they should. They are now proposing that they don't have to hold any copies, at all. That'll work I’m sure.

Dodgy Work
Also ask the readers to contact someone, me, anyone, if the room their gas appliance is in has a blackening of the walls, this and many more potential death traps I have come across in my work in Nelson, but if you fix it no one wants to know. I went to one property that had blackened walls and told the customer I would have disconnect it, his reply was not to as his 6 year old daughter loved the fire and went out like a light on the settee, he was poisoning her without knowing. Authorities only want to know if it is “immediately” dangerous…. even “potentially” dangerous isn’t investigated and no one wants to know about it. If you find this unbelievable, as I do, check the publications by the authorities, utter madness. 
You are not to smell raw un-burnt gas, it is not ok. I have had people report a smell of gas, “because it has smelt for weeks”. Every appliance should be serviced at least every two years, usually annually and in a commercial situation every 6 to 3 months. Some appliances can give a small smell of gas upon light up or when you get your bottles filled, but on the whole you should not be able to smell raw un-burnt gas, ever.
There is more to this fiasco but, believe it or not, I am trying to condense it to the main points. It has consumed my life, ruined my business and put a huge strain on my wife's stress levels. I can see people glaze over when I start to talk about it because there is so much; it really requires a public enquiry, please before we have another incident.
I just want my life back; my only real mistake was trying to protect the public (I had nothing to gain by doing so)……. by telling the very people who were responsible for empowering the man who was causing me so much concern, and still does. Please don’t let it take a worse incident to get a truly independent inquiry.
I have been asked why I just don’t leave NZ, one real easy answer……. I bloody love it here, and my kids are kiwis and so are me and my wife.... all of us NZ citizens…….…I ain’t going nowhere, why should I. The NZ public deserve so much more and a small few are spoiling it for others, just to line their pockets and get a power trip at the expense of others. Their actions show their intent.


Yours Sincerely Paul Gee

Please see below correspondence with Board CEO and the Dept of Building and Housing……..






From: Paul & Emma Gee [mailto:gasnsolarservices@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, 22 March 2012 6:24 p.m.
To: 'Max Pedersen'
Cc: 'Wal Gordon'; 'Allan Day'; 'closeup@tvnz.co.nz'; 'Jehan Casinader'
Subject: Paul Gee
Max, 
Please can you tell me where and when I might be able to do the course that is my punishment for using a British Standard for the positioning of a califont, and when must I do this by.
Also please can you let me know if I can use the attached British Standard, especially page 42 and 43, in light of an email below.
It is very confusing, please can you clarify, thank you.
Paul and Emma,
Please find below a brief overview of gasfitting in New Zealand.
   “Gasfitting” is a defined term in the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Act 2006
   In order to do gasfitting you have to be licensed by the Plumbers Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board
   Gas work (gasfitting) must comply with the Gas Regulations and be certified by the gasfitter as complying with NZS 5261: 2003, part 1 which is the Performance based design and installation criteria
   Part 2 of NZS 5261 gives one way of complying with Part 1, but other ways of complying with part 1 can be used. Relevant Australian or British standards may be used if the gasfitter can demonstrate compliance with NZS 5261, Part1
As I understand it this differs from the UK where home owners are able to do their own gas work.
Other sources of information can be obtained from the Energy Safety Service (www.ess.govt.nz) and the Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board (www.pgdb.co.nz)
Please telephone if you wish to discuss
Kind regards
Bruce
Bruce Klein
Senior Advisor Building Standards

Department of Building and Housing
Te Tari Kaupapa Whare
DDI: (04) 8174812
Level 6, 86 Customhouse Quay
PO Box 10729, Wellington 6143, New Zealand
Web: http://www.dbh.govt.nz
 



Linkback: https://www.plumbers.co.nz/forum/pgdb-new-zealand-plumbing-gasfitting-and-drainlaying-board/30/paul-gee-history-every-tradesman-should-read-this-it-could-happen-to-you/1061/
You can't choose who you are.....but you are the sum of your choices.......

Offline Badger

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There really is heaps more and I can prove all of it......wonder if I'll have any lawyers put on me for slander, WHEN IT IS ALL TRUE.

Spineless  >:(

Offline Badger

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Here you go guys here is the British Standard for gas appliances under 70 kw, think from memory the one I fitted was for about 50-55 kw. This is the standard that the ONLY gasfitter, other than me, at my hearing....a Scottish one at that was apparently unaware of.......if it is the same Graham Hardy that just got nominated for the Board of Master Plumbers.......it just makes you think aye...shhhhh :-X

Get behind Wal and the Federation today

You got a choice either fight together today or chance facing this shit tommorrow on your todd....I was an ex-president of Master Plumbers and was told by Fiona Gravel to watch who helped me....and their motives/agenda.

Well Fi-Fi your lack of help and turning of your back speaks volumes of your motives and agenda....I been on defence for 3 years, now a different tack me thinks 8)

Offline Badger

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PLEASE SEE BELOW CORRESPONDENCE ABOUT USING AN OTHER STANDARD, AS YOU ARE MEAN'T TO BE ABLE TO AS PER 5261.

COME ON EXPERTS LETS HAVE A DECISION......... ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Hi Charlotte,

 

As I wrote the email below in a rush last night I would like to add on further to the email that as the Board is an expert Board, that were so sure of the fact that it asked for this fact to be adduced at the appeal. At an appeal I was not allowed to adduce this same standard of which we speak. As this expert, that you claim to be, you are the people to answer whether or not I can use this standard, yes or no….you seem very confident in your other convictions and opinions on the use of regs and moral high ground …….so why not now, it appears the more you try to “dodge” this answer the more “dodgy” it looks.

 

Also can you consider and table along with the evidence below, to give weight to the use of this BS standard that the population in the UK live in closer proximity, in denser concentrations, for example inner city situations. This tightly packing of people would give a greater ambient concentration of back ground air content of fumes, aswell as direct fumes entering a dwelling.

 

You claim to be an expert and have done so in the high court of NZ, so can I please get an expert answer, yes or no…..with reasons for the answer( if it is yes don’t bother, on my account)

 

Cheers Charlotte

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul & Emma Gee [mailto:gasnsolarservices@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2012 7:22 p.m.
To: 'Charlotte Miller'; 'closeup@tvnz.co.nz'; 'Jehan Casinader'
Cc: 'Wal Gordon'; 'Allan Day'
Subject: RE: CAN I GO TO WORK????

 

Hi Charlotte, thank you for your reply

 

Question…How about the whole population of the UK as proof of performance, with the reg in use since 2000 AD until today. Installing units fan driven up to 70kw, far in excess of most units commonly used in NZ.

 

I want to table this proof to the Board and get a decision from the Board in light of this international standard and universally recognised quality mark, where I might add the population is far in excess of NZ as well as the per capita use of gas ………..

 

Can I use the British Standard; I am asking for a yes or no from the Board, please for clarification. I do not have the resources that the Board have nor the same access to experts. As the governing body you should surely be able to answer this as a yes or no. Please can you stop referring me to more sections and acts?

 

Also the UK have a greater amount of central heating boilers/combi boilers, which tend to require a greater energy input, and are predominantly services by a fan driven exhaust flue, the regs are based on energy input/output. An appliance heating the whole house as well as the hot water would use a significant amount of energy. This are in most dwelling and are the norm, which isn’t the case in NZ where it is predominantly hot water by Electric.

 

 

Please can you consider in your decision that--

 

I would put it to the Board that it out performs the NZ reg, because it is more tested over time (physical solar years) and running time “use hours”, i.e. used in a much greater population where more people use more gas, it has been used since 2000AD and so is more tried aswell in time as well as use hours.
 

Also the UK have a greater amount of central heating boilers/combi boilers, which tend to require a large energy input, and the regs are based on energy input/output….not brand.
 

 

I offer this equation for working out an average “working hours used”. I am happy to do an equation for NZ and then UK, but the sheer scale means it isn’t required….unless you would like me to provide.
 

                                                                                 Average time of running x energy rating x population x per capita use = working hours

 

 

I believe as it is more tested, and could be argued that it then out performs or at the very least equals the NZ reg 5261 in performance.

 

 

Yes or No….can I use it or not.

 

If any part of this email is incorrect or needs clarifying, let me know.

 

Please can I get an answer at your nearest convenience? I have other avenues of experts I would like to try, but feel it is only right to exhaust my options with the Board.

 

Thank you Paul Gee

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charlotte Miller [mailto:Charlotte@pgdb.co.nz]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2012 5:06 p.m.
To: Paul & Emma Gee
Cc: Max Pedersen
Subject: RE: CAN I GO TO WORK????

 

Dear Mr Gee

 

I refer to your emails dated 22 March 2012, 27 March 2012, and 28 March 2012 received by the Board, in which you have asked the following questions:

 

(a)      Where and when you might be able to do the course that the Board has ordered you to do, as stated to in the Board’s decision dated July 2011, and when do you need to complete it by (email dated 22 March 2012);?

(b)      How can you get a gasfitting practising licence when the Board have made it a condition that you do a course before you uplift one and they aren’t telling you what, when or when regarding the course (email dated 27 March 201)?

(c)      Can you work (email dated 28 March 2012)?

(d)     Can you use the British standard referred to in your email, in light of Bruce Klein’s overview of gasfitting in New Zealand (emails dated 22 March 2012 and 28 March 2012)?

 

I have grouped your questions together and have answered them under the two headings below.

 

Renewal of your practising licence as a certifying gasfitter (questions a, b and c)

 

I confirm that you can uplift your gasfitting practising licence for the licensing year beginning 1 April 2012. I note from the Board’s records that you have in fact already applied and paid for your licence as a certifying gasfitter and this has been processed. You will be able to carry out gasfitting work from 1 April 2012.

 

In the penalty decision dated 4 November 2011, at paragraph 25 of the decision, the Board ordered that you are required to attend, at your own cost, a course of instruction in Unit Standard 21893: “Install and commission Type 2 gas appliances and equipment” provided by a training provider or qualified person approved by the Registrar.

 

It states that you must complete the course no later than 31 March 2013 and that you must provide evidence of having passed the course before you can uplift a practising licence as certifying gasfitter for the licensing year beginning 1 April 2013, or any year subsequent should you fail to complete the required course before 1 April 2013.

 

The decision is clear that your eligibility to uplift a licence from 1 April 2012 to 31 March 2013 is not limited. However, if you do not complete the course by 31 March 2013, then you would not be able to uplift a licence for the year beginning 1 April 2013 to 31 March 2014.

 

The course that you are required to undertake (referred to above) can be carried out at an accredited polytechnic. I suggest that you contact a polytechnic near you to organise to undertake the required course.

 

Use of British Standards to demonstrate compliance with NZS 5261, Part 1 (question d)

 

Gasfitting work must comply with the Gas Act 1992 and the Gas (Safety and Measurement) Regulations 2010 and section 43(1) states that gasfitting work must be in accordance with the New Zealand Standard 5261. Part 1 of the Standard (Performance based design and installation criteria) is mandatory. Part 2 of New Zealand standard 5261 is a means of compliance which infers that there are other ways of complying with Part 1 that can be used, for example, Australian or British standards. However, in order to use alternative means of compliance, the gasfitter must demonstrate that they meet or exceed the performance criteria New Zealand standard 5261, part 1. If you wish to rely on a standard other than the New Zealand Standard 5262 it is your responsibility to demonstrate that it meets or exceeds performance criteria set out in the New Zealand Standard 5261.

 

Please also note section 50(1)and(2) of the Gas (Safety and Measurement) Regulations 2010 and in particular, section 50(2)(c)(ii).

 

Regards

 

 

Charlotte Miller

 

Solicitor

Plumbers, Gasfitters and Drainlayers Board

Level 9, 70 The Terrace

P O Box 10655

WELLINGTON 6143

Phone   (04) 495 2927

Fax      (04) 494 2975

Email    charlotte@pgdb.co.nz

 


From: Paul & Emma Gee [mailto:gasnsolarservices@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2012 9:14 a.m.
To: Nifo Pelesasa; Angela Angus; Alan Bickers; admin1; Charlotte Miller; PGDB Communications; Max Pedersen; enquiry@oag.govt.nz; 'Mission Chambers'
Cc: 'Wal Gordon'; 'Allan Day'
Subject: FW: CAN I GO TO WORK????

 

As Max isn’t answering me….can anyone at the Board answer my question, please see below

 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paul & Emma Gee [mailto:gasnsolarservices@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 28 March 2012 9:07 a.m.
To: 'Max Pedersen'; 'chiefreporter@nelsonmail.co.nz'; 'closeup@tvnz.co.nz'; 'Jehan Casinader'
Cc: 'Wal Gordon'; 'Allan Day'
Subject: CAN I GO TO WORK????

 

Max,

 

The Board has had its foot on my neck for nearly three years……. can I work or not to provide for my young family?? Can I get an answer today Max??

 

I have attached the British Standard, perhaps you could pass it on to Mr Hardie, the only other gasfitter at my hearing and one from the UK at that……. it is a joke, especially in light of the letter from the Dept of Building and Housing.

 

How about all the certs the Board have lost or accepted not properly filled in, what has been done about that Max?? Have you let the public know that they may not have housing insurance??

 

Paul

Offline Badger

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Can you believe these, above, are those that lead us and claim to put the public first, it appears the only priority is that they show is that which they show themselves.

Offline Badger

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Kern Uren, the big man who phoned me to "warn" me, had to settle out of court when an office LADY taped his bullying at work, spinless.

There is absolutely heaps more and needs looking at..........a public enquiry please.

Offline Jaxcat

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Badger, regretfully your last post is inaccurate.  If there was indeed any settlement (and it would remain confidential if there was or run the risk of being overturned) then it would be "the Board" as the employer that would settle not individual employees.  Please be careful about mentioning names - it could land you in more hot water and that would be the very last thing any of us would want to see for you.  What your situation has proven is that tradesmen should be cautious when dealing with the Board, they should always seek some sort of advice before agreeing to meet any investigator and should always have a witness present during any sort of interview.  Processes need tidying up that is for sure. 

My understanding is that the investigator decides if there is a case to answer (rightly or wrongly) and once they say there is a case the Board have no choice but to hold a hearing.  There has been a great deal learned by industry from your case I believe - and this may be your legacy.  It is of no help to you, but it will help others who find themselves in the same position - they now have a better understanding of what they need to do, whom they need to talk to and how they should conduct their defence if they find themselves in this unfortunate position.  Your own record keeping appears to be impeccable, and this has no doubt helped you to be found innocent of the vast majority of charges.   The gas certification scheme is due to change again in 2013 and it will be even more important for certifying gasfitters to maintain an excellent papertrail of gas jobs that they do - there will be less protection than ever before, and perhaps no central register.  It will also mean less protection for the public as the audit trail will disappear without certificates in a central register.  How anyone thinks this will be an improvement is beyond me. 

I hope you and your family are managing to heal from the torment you have been through over the last few years.  I send good wishes to you.
Have you learned lessons only of those who admired you, and were tender with you, and stood aside for you?  Have you not learned great lessons from those who braced themselves against you, and disputed the passage with you?  (Walt Whitman 1819-1891)  American Poet

Offline Badger

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I find it unbelieveable I have to be careful in what I "say" and these people can steam roller my life for 3 years, he has told lies about me that ruined my reputation and business....it appears to be the way of the world. Its who you know not what you know, and you can do what you like.

The Board were quite part of it and the investigator didn't tell them to slate me again in public before my appeal, or do me for just one charge that is quite legal in the UK....and they still won't answer if I can use this reg which is tried and tested in the UK, for much longer than the reg they are beating me over the head with.

They have had plenty of choices to make, and opportunities to leave me alone, you give them way too much benefit of the doubt

Offline Jaxcat

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Don't misunderstand me Badger, I am not siding with them at all - I just don't want to see you have to go through any more grief.  I think your situation serves a salutory lesson to every gasfitter in NZ - any single gasfitter could end up facing the same problems you have - and the price you have paid is very, very high for the alleged particular they found you guilty of.  There does need to be a huge change in attitude by the PGDB - they constantly claim that they want to become trusted by industry again, but this will never happen in the foreseable future while no drastic changes are made at their end - and this may mean personnel changes as well as governance changes.  I hope that people read your story and then think about the installations they have done - they could be visited over any job five, 10 or 15 years from now.  How sobering is that?  I don't mean in anyway to side with them, I am sincere when I say I hope you can start to see forward now - your family have suffered through these past few years and you all deserve a break now. 

Offline Badger

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I agree Jax, everybody who has ever issued a gas cert (or, as it seems the direction the trades are going, sign off any plumbing, roof, electrical or building work) should be very wary. Even if you think your "in" and protected.....watch you don't fall out of favor and remember it is a very small number who are actually truly in, the rest are to be used and discarded as required.



They still won't even answer whether I can use the BS  standard, whether its a yes or no.....even though they are the experts and were very sure I couldn't at the appeal.


Offline Jaxcat

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The other question that has been niggling me is this - as they have found you guilty of the charge regarding the installation of the water heater in too close a proximity to an opening window - do they now require the home owner to have this moved?  And if not are they then accepting that it is not actually dangerous?

Offline Badger

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The guy screwed the window shut, even though in 6 years it had never given any problems.

What I want to to know is.... were they aware of the British Standard, if not, why didn't they allow it once they were made aware it and if they knew about it before why did they ignore it and /or disallow it....on what grounds?? The only gasfitter there was bloody Scottish, it is laughable.

Jax you got to bear in mind that after 3 years of leading an Inquisition against me. I was not treated fair in any way....being lied to and lied about, evidence and photos with held, evidence gathered after the charges were made, last minuet witnesses, altering the charges to fit, etc etc, This is all they had on me, this one measurement that is nearly double the British regs. A reg more tested and used than the NZ one.

AND THEY ARE THE EXPERTS????? they are not capable of doing a fair job and should go. WE NEED A PUBLIC ENQUIRY. This could be any tradesman that signs anything off.


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